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The "Dumbness of Crowds"

Community. Wisdom of Crowds. Collective Intelligence. The new emphasis on net-enabled collaboration is all goodness and light until somebody gets an eye I poked out. Is it merely a coincidence that Apple, run by (as James Gosling put it) "a dictator with good taste" leads the way in tech design, while risk-averse companies using design-by-committee (or consensus) are churning out bland, me-too, incremental tweaks to existing products? And if that's true about companies, why do we think consensus will work on an even larger scale with "users" in Web 2.0?
Jaron Lanier, in his controversial Edge essay Digital Maoism, has a great quote:
"In the last year or two the trend has been to remove the scent of people..."
All geeks-and-personal-hygiene-jokes aside, we need the smell. And the most frustrating part for me is how the "Wisdom of Crowds" idea has been twisted and abused to mean virtually the opposite of what New Yorker columnist James Surowiecki says in the book of the same name. He opened a talk at ETech telling us that while ants become smarter as the number of collaborators increases, humans become dumber. In what is potentially the most misleading book/idea title in the history of the world, the "Crowds" in "The Wisdom of Crowds" was never meant to mean "mobs", "groups acting as one", "committees", "consensus" or even "high collaboration".
By "crowd,", I think he meant "more people", sure, but he also defined a big ol' set of constraints for how much togetherness people can have before the results became dumber. And it turns out, not that much. By "crowd", he was referring to a collection of individuals. Individuals whose independent knowledge (and "independent" is a key word in what makes the crowd "smart") is aggregated in some way, not smushed into one amorphous Consensus Result.
Web 2.0 and putting the Community in Control
One of the high-profile concepts of the Web 2.0 meme is community. Giving community the control. Letting the community make decisions. Trusting the community. And--if you're a lucky bubble-2.0er--letting the community do all the work while you collect the money. But this idea of consensus-community is not at all what I've heard Tim O'Reilly talk about when he uses the phrase, "harnessing collective intelligence" or when he describes Web 2.0 as something whose value to users grows with the number of users.
What's the difference between Collective Intelligence and Dumbness of Crowds? A few examples:
"Collective intelligence" is a pile of people writing Amazon book reviews.
"Dumbness of Crowds" is a pile of people collaborating on a wiki to collectively author a book.
(Not that there aren't exceptions, but that's just what they are--rare exceptions for things like reference books. I'm extremely skeptical that a group will produce even a remotely decent novel, for example. Most fiction suffers even with just two authors.)
"Collective Intelligence" is all the photos on Flickr, taken by individuals on their own, and the new ideas created from that pool of photos (and the API).
"Dumbness of Crowds" is expecting a group of people to create and edit a photo together.
"Collective Intelligence" is about getting input and ideas from many different people and perspectives.
"Dumbness of Crowds" is blindly averaging the input of many different people, and expecting a breakthrough.
(It's not always the averaging that's the problem it's the blindly part)
"Collective Intelligence" is about the community on Threadless, voting and discussing t-shirts designed by individuals.
"Dumbness of Crowds" would be expecting the Threadless community to actually design the t-shirts together as a group.
Art isn't made by committee.
Great design isn't made by consensus.
True wisdom isn't captured from a crowd.
At least not when the crowd is acting as a single entity. Clearly there IS wisdom in the many as long as you don't "poison" the crowd by forcing them to agree (voting doesn't mean agreeing). According to Surowiecki, even just sharing too much of your own specialized knowledge with others in the group is enough to taint the wisdom and dumb-down the group.
It's the sharp edges, gaps, and differences in individual knowledge that make the wisdom of crowds work, yet the trendy (and misinterpreted) vision of Web 2.0 is just the opposite--get us all collborating and communicating and conversing all together as one big happy collborating, communicating, conversing thing until our individual differences become superficial.
Imagine a community--let's say the Dog Lover's Society--that through a genetic breakthrough is given the chance to design the perfect dog. Everyone gets to contribute. Everyone's idea counts. The dog will be the perfect reflection of the wisdom of the dog-loving crowd. What will they come up with?

I see two options:
1) A non-descript Generic Dog--the average of every possible dog attribute. It would look something like the abstract DOG used in pre-school books where you teach two-year olds to "point to the DOGGY"
OR
2) Frankendog--a hideous patchwork of dog parts that were never meant to go together. It would look something like a Star Trek transporter accident.
Of course most of what I've been dissing is the popular, rampant misinterpretation of Wisdom of Crowds, not what Surowiecki actually meant. Read the book and you'll see just how significant and powerful the aggregation of individual knowledge really is, and how in the right circumstances with the right constraints, the wisdom found in that group CAN be smarter than the smartest individual in the group. But he never says the group itself becomes smarter when they work together to produce a result as a group.
20Q - a perfect example of the real Wisdom of Crowds
If you're one of the twelve people who haven't yet played with the 20Q "toy", you have no idea how scarily well this thing "guesses" what you're thinking about. The creepy thing isn't necessarily that it figures out you were thinking of thermometer, bra, microscope, painting, mp3 player, or lightbulb (all things it guessed correctly for me yesterday). The really creepy thing is how it got there from the questions it asked. Although the program clearly changes questions based on your answer to the previous questions, it doesn't change them nearly as much as you'd think it would need to.
If I didn't know better, I'd swear it's using voice recognition to cheat. But no, it turns out there's a perfect explanation for its supernatural accuracy. The creator harnessed collective intelligence. Hundreds of thousands of people "taught" the program over a period of years, by playing software versions of his game. The program uses a neural net, and learned. It learned so well, in fact, that it learned a few dumb things. For example, way too many people think a dolphin is a fish, so even if you say "yes" when asked by the device if what you're thinking of is a fish, it can still figure out you mean dolphin from other cues. (Apparently it also thinks human beings may not actually be animals, based on the "collective intelligence" of those who've played the online version.)
Finally, while I disagree with much of what Jaron talks about in his essay, I know how damn smart this guy is (we were on a panel together a long time ago at the Junos in Canada). A few of my favorite quotes:
"Meanwhile, an individual best achieves optimal stupidity on those rare occasions when one is both given substantial powers and insulated from the results of his or her actions.
"If the above criteria have any merit, then there is an unfortunate convergence. The setup for the most stupid collective is also the setup for the most stupid individuals.
"Every authentic example of collective intelligence that I am aware of also shows how that collective was guided or inspired by well-meaning individuals. These people focused the collective and in some cases also corrected for some of the common hive mind failure modes."
No matter what, I believe that in our quest to exploit the "We" in Web, we must not sacrifice the "I" in Internet.
Posted by Kathy on January 2, 2007 | Permalink
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Comments
Nice post, Kathy! This made me think of two books:
"Blue Ocean Strategy" by Kim & Mauborgne, which advocates leaving the red oceans of mass "wisdom" for the blue oceans of edgy but uncontested space. Great book.
Meanwhile, there IS a novel written by a collection of very accomplished writers: "Naked Came the Manatee". Dave Barry must have penned the title, and he wrote the first chapter, then a host of other well-known writers took turns with succeeding chapters. It was bizarre, but fun to see how it twisted with each new author's hand (and voice).
As for that 20Q toy, I thought it was just scamming me when it said, after about 12 questions, "I'm going to win" -- and damned if it didn't guess correctly (soccer ball).
Posted by: John Windsor | Jan 2, 2007 9:32:55 PM
By the way, just in case it's not obvious... I concocted this whole long and rambling post just so I could show off the new chart I just learned how to make -- that radar-looking thing at the top (I think they're called 'spider' charts). DeltaGraph rocks.
John: Blue Ocean Strategy is one of my all-time favorite books for sure. And I do think there will be novelty and 'artistic' projects that use multiple authors (I think the surrealists used to do that for fun), but those will be special exceptions. Even non-fiction tech books often suffer from having multiple authors. The only solutions for this are to strip the writing of any voice at all so you don't have franken-chapters, or for a single editor to do a lot of work to give it "a single voice" (some gifted editors can do this quite well, but I have no idea how).
And yeah, the 20Q "attitude" is really annoying, but the thing really does scare me sometimes.
Posted by: Kathy Sierra | Jan 2, 2007 9:42:31 PM
Great post Kathy. I think this trend is a bit like the period just before the bubble 1.0 burst, when everyone was convinced that community could solve every problem, but few knew the real work it took to really make it happen.
It is a shame that the wisdom of crowds has been co-opted as you describe. I think it was Chris Anderson in The Long Tail that said that the key point is that the WoC works as long as each person is working in their own self-interest and not the interests of the group. I think about this when I tag my photos on Flickr - I do it for myself - my own interests, but my interests also roll-up into value for the community.
Posted by: Lee LeFever | Jan 2, 2007 11:52:22 PM
Great article, it coveres exactly the feeling I have with some of the so much liked web 2.0-thingy's. After the community is done, you keep the most boring and safe stuff around - while the most cool and needy things are lost in 'translation'.
On the other hand u might need to ask yourself: isn't this dumbness of crowds exactly what many people do all day long? Adopting to the value's, meaning and opinion of others? It's propably very 'human' to just concensus things out and accepting the middle of the road-leftovers :-)
Posted by: Nigel | Jan 3, 2007 2:48:05 AM
Great post (and very nice spider graphs too!)
I particularly like this quote -"an individual best achieves optimal stupidity on those rare occasions when one is both given substantial powers and insulated from the results of his or her actions" -yet another reason why the quantitative pre-testing of advertising is fatally flawed.
Posted by: Jason Lonsdale | Jan 3, 2007 4:02:36 AM
I haven't read the rest of the article yet, but great first sentence about getting an "I" poked out! :)
Posted by: Keith Handy | Jan 3, 2007 4:35:06 AM
Kathy
An interesting and challenging post, as usual.
As a Brit who lives in Europe and who has worked all over the world, I see the 'we' in the wisdom of the crowd vs. the 'I' in individual or Internet as very much a cultural thing.
Geert Hofstede's work on 'cultural dimensions' identifies five core dimensions through which to look at national or company cultures. It should be no surprise that the USA comes out very strongly on one of the dimensions, 'individualism' compared to say Japan, Germany, or much of the rest of the world. See http://www.geert-hofstede.com/geert_hofstede_resources.shtml for more details.
People from highly individualistic cultures often challenge the value of collective action due to their inherent cultural biases. The same happens in reverse in colective cultures of course, albeit to a lesser extent.
The real challenge, as you point out, is in identifying how to make collective intelligence through collaboration work better. Surowiecki's book is a good start. The Center for Collaborative Organisations at the Uni of North Texas' workbooks are much better. But making collaboration work in individualistic cultures is difficult. Witness the general failure of TQM in the 1980s.
Graham Hill
PS. Rather than Apple, which is a relatively unimportant company in the larger scale of things, perhaps you should have contrasted the failure of individualistic companies like GM and Ford with the success of collective companies like Toyota.
Posted by: Graham Hill | Jan 3, 2007 4:50:37 AM
This must be one of the best things written about Web 2.0 I've seen. Your "collective intelligence is about..." vs. "dumbness of crowds..." contrasts are right on the money.
Posted by: Larry Sanger | Jan 3, 2007 6:28:50 AM
Sometimes a rant is inevitable! Good summary of the REAL wisdom of crowds, and the necessary constraints that enable it. I get pretty frustrated with people who don't know the facts passing judgement on what can be a very useful idea. Thanks for saying it well!
Posted by: Robert Hruzek | Jan 3, 2007 6:46:02 AM
Forget the dog. Let's use a real life example.
If all the members of the Perl Lover's Society got together to design a programming language... what would you get?
Posted by: Daniel Berger | Jan 3, 2007 8:03:31 AM
I would have to disagree with Graham; the failure of companies like GM has more to do, I think, with the attempt to follow the "crowd"--whereas when they were directed by strong individuals such as Lee Iacocca, they were saved from a more premature failure.
I wrote about it in my blog, but this post reminded me of the way it feels to work with various types of theatre groups. My preference is the "Director-as-Dictator" model; where there is a good design team, a lot of different ideas brought to the table, but that energy is harnessed and focused by the Director, who (along with great power) also has ultimate responsibility.
This is contrasted with groups I've worked with that try to work by "consensus"--which, aside from taking forever, tends to dilute and soften the focus of a performance idea, until everyone (or, more often, no one) is pleased, but all can get by with the result.
The "insulated from consequences" rule applies inversely here: if there is a bad review, the director faces those consequences, where as the collective always can point the finger at someone else.
Just my opinion.
Posted by: Gray | Jan 3, 2007 8:44:22 AM
Similarly, we always hinge between the safety of the group and the awareness of the individual, the crowd scene in Borat is a perfect example of that ballence
http://www.gotuit.com/player/index.html?c=SM_Entertainment&t=6021&s=47992
in the beginning, the collective is at work, and very quickly the individual is triggered. I didn't tag the whole thing, but by the end, they return to a booing mob.... We are playing with something delicate and dangerous to say the least.
Posted by: Grendly | Jan 3, 2007 9:18:34 AM
It appears there is an important difference between what one averages out of the crowd and what emerges from the crowd.
Posted by: Fregni | Jan 3, 2007 9:49:48 AM
Kathy,
I love your blog. You keep on putting out great content. Keep it coming. Your blog generates compelling conversations.
-John
Posted by: John Furrier | Jan 3, 2007 10:51:45 AM
You're right on, Kathy. The most under-appreciated part of Suroweiki's book is the notion of independence.
There's also another under-appreciated notion, that of aggregation at scale. When you aggregate many *independent* things, say millions of them, the result is actually much more rich than one initially assumes.
Many folks look at a technology like tagging, for example, and say that all sorts of meaning will be lost because tagging isn't comprehensive. That is, because there is no rule saying that you have to use all the NY tags (like NewYork, NewYorkCity, NY, BigApple, and everything in between) when we tag something, that there will be holes in the completeness of our data set.
But what scale gives us is the ability to include so many independent actions that *if it is important to someone it will be in the system*. It might not be what everyone does, but it will be there. So, if you aggregate all the tags, it will be clear which ones refer to New York and which ones don't, because of the small but many overlaps between what people do.
This is a long way of saying that I think independence and aggregation at scale are the two most under-appreciated notions of the networked world.
Posted by: Joshua Porter | Jan 3, 2007 11:14:23 AM
These are interesting and valid points, Kathy, that raise a fundamental question.
Crowds have already accomplished incredible things - some of which I would have sworn were well outside a crowds capabilities. Wikipedia is the prototypical example, there are many others.
I'm convinced that the arguments you present here mean that we still have a lot to learn about how crowds do optimal work - but that we still haven't tapped into their true power.
And now the question: How can we use the objections you raise here to improve the wisdom of crowds in areaas where it doesn't work well today, rather than give up on it?
In my opionion, crowds are still in their infancy, and have still to do their greatest works. And yes, that makes me a true believer :o)
Posted by: Alexander Kjerulf | Jan 3, 2007 11:33:29 AM
I'm glad someone finally said what I've been thinking for a while.
It's truly scary the number of start-ups that have been created based upon misunderstanding this idea.
You only have to look at mainstream media of any form to see that the lowest common denominator is what's most popular.
Posted by: engtech | Jan 3, 2007 11:36:09 AM
Based on my experience at University, it is clear that there is an optimum size for a group based on a given task.
Want to write something? Two. One to write, one to edit.
Want to devise a plan of some consequence? Two to four--the folks available with the most personally vested in the outcome of the plan. Anything above that extends the time required and will not increase, and will likely decrease, the intelligence of the plan.
The *definition* of time wasted is a bunch of academics sitting around a table at a regular time. Its called a faculty meeting.
Getting things done in Academia
a guide for graduate students
Posted by: Mike Kaspari | Jan 3, 2007 12:20:32 PM
the book I thought of was East of Eden...
"Nothing was ever created by two men. There are no good collaborations, whether in music, in art, in poetry, in mathematics, in philosophy. Once the miracle of creation has taken place, the group can build and extend it, but the group never invents anything. The preciousness lies in the lonely mind of a man."
Posted by: ed | Jan 3, 2007 12:49:02 PM
see "painting by numbers"
Posted by: yow | Jan 3, 2007 1:17:58 PM
Coincidentally, I read this: http://www.culturecult.com/sandall_dec06.htm not half an hour ago. Broader and more antisocial in context perhaps, but...
Hmm.
Posted by: Melle | Jan 3, 2007 1:33:51 PM
Your posts are the best ones I read.
Posted by: tamimat | Jan 3, 2007 2:23:11 PM
Killer post, just amazing
Posted by: Jeremiah Owyang | Jan 3, 2007 2:31:49 PM
Hey Kathy,
Great post, but I am failing to follow one of your points. You write "Giving community the control" as one of the concepts of Web 2.0, and then follow with "if you're a lucky bubble-2.0er letting the community do all tho work".
With the big 2.0ers like myspace and flickr for example, I don't see how the community is in control.
One the contrary, I see those communities as a decentralized, scattered "herd" and suffering from lack of control. It is exactly this decentralization that gives the bubble2.0er the opportunity to collect the money.
Your refinement of the "wisdom of the crowds" concept made me think of open-source projects.
In many ways, open source is *the* model that predated Web 2.0. Open source projects existed, collaborated and shared collective wisdom long before the Web 2.0 days. I think that it is exactly their ability to exert control, and act as a unified community, and keep the control out of commercial hands, that made the projects so successful.
Posted by: Yoni | Jan 3, 2007 3:02:34 PM
A couple of years ago, watching "The Apprentice", I noticed a similar trend. There was the Male group and the Female group. The male group picked a leader, collected ideas, and one person made a decision. The female group collected ideas and then tried to get "Consensus". The males kept winning the challenges.
Individuals bring a lot to the party. They increase the breadth of available ideas. The leader (if he is good), collects the idea, and chooses the one with the most merit. Trying to get everyone to agree on what is the right choice is a waste of time.
Posted by: brad tittle | Jan 3, 2007 3:23:30 PM
Completely spot on Kathy!
The two extremes that you've described (generic dog and frankendog - which is ironically the nickname that I've given to my new puppy) are so often what we find as a result of any sort of community or even committee design process.
And you need only look at the behaviour of even small groups to see the tendencies at work. In the majority of cases a group of people is not really a group of people - it is a bunch of individuals, behaving like individuals. Each of those individuals has their own particular agenda and their own idea (be that preference or understanding) about what the goals of the group should be.
The most important thing that needs to happen when trying to get a group to operate well together is to get a shared understanding of what the group is supposed to be doing. (that's "shared understanding" in the literal sense, rather than the touchy feely management speak sense)
The common thread in the list of comparisons that you've shown (the collective intelligence vs. dumbness of crowds) seems to be that the examples of collective intelligence have a very well defined goal. For example a crowd critiquing t-shirt designs is a relatively well defined concept with few parameters for the group to misunderstand.
On the subject of voting being different to agreeing...
I heard someone say once that the idea of working well as a group was to achieve conSensus - which is very different to conCensus.
Just because the majority of people feel it to be right doesn't mean that it is.
Posted by: omni | Jan 3, 2007 3:41:56 PM
This is all demonstrated very well in The Simpsons episode where Homer gets to design a car. It also shows (in a subtler way) how poisonous the wisdom of the crowd is for the individual - the individual can actually become proxy for the crowd.
Posted by: George | Jan 3, 2007 4:03:46 PM
I'm probably lost in deep left field, but it seems to me Collective Intelligence works when it's about Discovery, provided the domain is well defined. Flickr is a great place to discover photographs and what people think of them, while Digg is a great place to discover geek-biased news. I sometimes wonder if a site allowing anything to be posted (think Flickr + Digg) would be as successful. The recurring theme in the Dumbness of Crowds seems to be Invention (or failure to), which so far is a uniquely individual activity. A crowd would never invent the Internet, but a crowd is exactly what's needed to discover what it can do.
Wikipedia seems -- like OSS -- to embody a bit of both, or perhaps it's because the distance between the invention (of content, or software) and discovery (their respective users) is close enough to allow the collaborative loop to close on the same site. It's as though Kodak were to invent both photography and Flickr at the same time and send out free cameras which would automatically post photos to their site.
Posted by: Rod | Jan 3, 2007 4:42:33 PM
I wrote about this exact fallacy starting a year ago:
http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=131
http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/12/wikipedia-and-wisdom-of-crowds/
http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=186
Posted by: Raph | Jan 3, 2007 7:14:55 PM
Rod: " A crowd would never invent the Internet, but a crowd is exactly what's needed to discover what it can do."
Well-said!
Alexander: "And now the question: How can we use the objections you raise here to improve the wisdom of crowds in areaas where it doesn't work well today, rather than give up on it?"
Hmmmm... I love your optimism (and people accuse ME of being too optimistic ; )
But I'm not sure about your question. To me, a more useful question might be "how can we figure out how to apply (benefit from) the wisdom of crowds in areas where it works well, and avoid the difficulties of applying it where it does not." or something like that...
Raph: Yeah, me too. I pretty much said the same thing about 18 months ago:
One of us is smarter than all of us, so my real question to you and everyone else who's been saying the same thing about this... why are these misconceptions so widespread, still?
In my 2005 post, I explained that before I heard his talk, I didn't want to read the book because I thought it was exactly the thing I complained about here. And given the terribly misleading title, I can imagine that's why so many people are jumping on the 'idea' based on the "Wisdom of Crowds" the phrase, as opposed to what he actually discusses in the book.
If I hadn't seen his talk, I'd be right there with everyone else assuming he meant something completely different. I was stunned to hear him open with the ant thing, and I went home and immediately started on the book.
(by the way, I really enjoyed your Theory of Fun book)
Posted by: Kathy Sierra | Jan 3, 2007 7:33:44 PM
Thanks for the kind words about the book, Kathy. I read the blog religiously. :) Right after I posted, I said to myself, "boy, that will probably read wrong... like I'm saying Kathy is late to the table!" Not my intent at all -- I love your blog and am in great envy of your ability to come up with cogent and pertinent and SUBSTANTIAL posts so often!
I agree, a huge part of it is the book title. It's not inaccurate -- Surowiecki is referencing crowds of people who, crucially, don't share data. But on the Web everyone is connected and sharing data, and that means that by and large, most everything we see referenced as "wisdom of crowds" is usually not. :)
We're going to keep having to correct it because the prevailing winds in the whole Web 2.0 meme are about collaboration across large groups, as you say. So anything that seems to be related gets swept up into it.
I think one valuable corrective might be to point out that the best Web 2.0 projects have been those where collaboration is driven by *lack* of consensus. Wikipedia works in large part because of the constant infighting and drama. Review aggregators and even simple rating systems (Amazon, etc) work because of disagreements.
Posted by: Raph | Jan 3, 2007 8:36:31 PM
Thanks for this excellent post; i now have a "ready-made" smart answer for all these people that say/write "wisdom of crowds" instead of "brainwashed communities"; they have usually read neither the book nor the summary, and want to justify dumb things (forgetting the key issue of independent individuals for example ...)
Thanks also for all your other posts that i have been reading for a while , from the other side of the ocean.
Posted by: Pierre Clause | Jan 3, 2007 11:45:52 PM
Our Company Spreadshirt created our new logo through a crowd sourcing process. Though it was in the end only one design of one single designer that made it through, I also asked in a post on our German Corporate Blog (German!) about the danger of "characterlessness" of production by a whole peer and the possible inability to handle real creative processes through it.
Posted by: Christian | Jan 4, 2007 3:24:11 AM
I have to say I disagree.
I've never seen a bad wiki project where people were contributing a lot. The only bad collaborations I've ever seen are where there is simple disinterest.
Even something as disorganized and messy as the WikiWikiWeb is a good read if you can find a node that interests you.
And I don't think there *is* a dumbness of the crowds as you mention at the top, in part because you're assuming that people are going to communicate before they make creative changes. What I see as crowd style artistic collaboration is simple throwing shit at the wall and having a thousand eyeballs watching for what sticks.
Personally, if someone asked me how to improve Wikipedia, I'd get rid of the Talk pages and user profiles, and any other behind the scenes communication tools.
I actually don't like MediaWiki very much.
Posted by: Danno | Jan 4, 2007 3:35:26 AM
"But it's limited by the fact that Surowiecki has essentially one picture of how collective cognition could work, namely averaging a lot of guesses which are randomly and independently distributed around the true answer --- in other words, the central limit theorem. This makes the cases where collective cognition depends very strongly on social interactions (science and democracy especially) unduly puzzling to him. Also, he is entirely too credulous about prediction markets" - from http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/notebooks/collective-cognition.html
I am no expert in probability - but this looks credible for me, and if it is right than the whole book is both a bit trivial (i.e. illustrating some mathmatical theorem) and limited and I am pretty sure it's popularity is directly the outcome of it's misinterpretations.
By the way there are good works of fiction created collectively - everything in the oral tradition. Particularily mythology.
Posted by: Zbigniew Lukasiak | Jan 4, 2007 5:03:02 AM
I'm reminded of this wonderful Demotivator from Despair.com:
Meetings - None of Us Is As Dumb As All of Us.
Posted by: Bob Shepard | Jan 4, 2007 7:54:05 AM
Collective ideas have different sets of pattern everytime, i must say,i have many customers who have website which conduct massive test only on latest crowd trends.
Posted by: vps hosting | Jan 4, 2007 10:24:30 AM
Wow.. What a treasure this post was including all comments. It is wonderful to see such passion, about this subject, arise from the crowds.
I will put you on my blogroll!!
Posted by: Raimo van der Klein | Jan 4, 2007 12:53:18 PM
I think you're taking two sides of the same medal apart here.
It all boils down to how you want to combine the knowledge of your users. You can pick the best ideas (by voting, whatever). You can pick the average idea (when measureable). You could even pick the worst idea.
So I disagree with your statement, that a group decision will always be somewhat boring. Or that there are two ways of doing these things.
There are tons of "combination functions" you could use, and it boils down to not assuming that the average or consensus will be the best for each situation. You might want to strip the top 10% and bottom 10%, then take the average (assuming that 20% of submissions are biased) etc. And it also sometimes is good to break the problem down into parts, sometimes not.
As for your dog example; you could define certain parts of the dog (snout, ears, eyes, tail, ...) and have people make proposals, then vote on them. But picking the "best" parts will likely result in the Frankenstein's dog. Picking the averages will result in the generic dog thing. So here it probably is best to have people make complete proposals and vote on them; while probably missing the best result, it will probably still be a pretty good result.
Heck, even voting isn't obviously done the right way... If everybody has one vote, and there are some next-to-identical submissions, they'll lose votes.
So some ranking is probably the way to go.
For other things, it's the same. You have to separate the problem the right way. When doing a web project, you might want to separate artwork from functionality from software. Vote on the artwork, have some group plan the software (that sometimes works fine in a commitee), merge and prioritize the functionality suggestions. Etc.
Posted by: Erich Schubert | Jan 4, 2007 8:27:42 PM
You wrote: > By "crowd", he was referring to a collection of individuals. Individuals whose independent knowledge (and "independent" is a key word in what makes the crowd "smart") is aggregated in some way, not smushed into one amorphous Consensus Result.
Yes! Yes! Well stated. Thank you. perhaps people will begin to get this soon.
I have attempted to describe the constraints. My list is that the network of members of the 'crowd' needs to support:
autonomy
diversity
openness
connectedness
What I have tried to do to make this distinction is to distinguish between 'networks' and 'groups'. Please see:
Posted by: Stephen Downes | Jan 5, 2007 8:27:12 AM
"I've searched all the parks in all the cities and found no statues of committees" (G. K. Chesterton)
Posted by: Alan Coady | Jan 5, 2007 12:10:11 PM
Officially one of the best posts on Web 2.0 I've read.
In the end, it is a matter of trying to entice people to create content for free and monetize it. Most of these 2.0 really do not care about the communities they are creating.
Posted by: Jeremy Luebke | Jan 5, 2007 2:34:49 PM
While this article had a decided lack of t-shirt photographs, I think it was outstanding nonetheless.
Tom Kelly, in "The Ten Faces of Innovation" says something along the lines of, "An innovative idea is a fragile thing. All it takes is a meeting where one person says, 'let me just play devil's advocate for a minute...', and it's dead."
Posted by: Tony Wright | Jan 5, 2007 3:57:59 PM
fantastic!
Posted by: Tammy Strnatka | Jan 5, 2007 5:29:18 PM
Funny and instructive post. ;)
Here's my take:
I have to say that from my experience (being in a music band) "working in the middle" of those two extremes is very effective. I know that a 5-person band is not exactly a "crowd", but anyway in my opinion there are some things to consider if you want to "work in the middle". This is kind of a rule we have:
The creative process should always have a leader: When we write a new piece we designate a "leader" who decides what ideas are included in the song and what is left out. That way, the "crowd" generates the content/ideas/wathever (in our case, riffs, solos, tunes) but they are not really in control, beacuse the leader has the final decision. This may create some tension (as your ideas may be left out) but the common agreement on this rule gives us the oportunity to be the "leader" some times and a "contributor" other times.
Posted by: vic | Jan 5, 2007 7:14:38 PM
Another example is the collective-style organization, which was all the rage in the 80s. My experience working in collectives was that the effective ones had an unofficial leader... without that leader, groups would degenerate into endless debates and squabbles. The best leaders were politically astute enough to avoid challenging the polite fiction that each person had equal power in the collective.
Posted by: Dee | Jan 6, 2007 12:07:34 PM
I agree, though don't underestimate the the role of the service provider. Look at Redhat for the optimised business model: they add the 20% professional gloss to the 80% graft done by the community. The edginess and fun comes from the community trying to out run the monolith that is Microsoft. 20q is a superb example of client side engagement using a very small AI footprint resulting in huge amount of knowledge transfer. Great post, well written and exactly what all the crowdsourcing entrepeneurs need slappin' in the face with.
Posted by: zeroinfluencer | Jan 7, 2007 7:34:00 AM
Great post! I was reading this (http://www.randi.org/jr/090602.html) today which reminded me of what you wrote. This person writes about his experience going to the Tony Robbins empowerment and self-help conferences. He writes:
"Maybe that's it. Crowds don't think very well. They just follow. I know, because I can also feel the powerful seduction of this phenomenon."
A long read, but extremely insightful.
Posted by: Ash | Jan 9, 2007 8:58:54 PM
It's interesting to consider those cases of great artworks that are created by groups. A few examples:
- All those movies and plays, created by teams each member of which has a defined task.
- The King James Bible, often called the one great work of literature created by committee. In that case, having a committee made for a better piece of literature as having all those different views of the meaning of the Bible led to pretty literary obfuscation.
Posted by: Joe Dz | Jan 10, 2007 1:58:35 PM
Great post!
I have often contemplated the ideas presented on this post. Here's my two cents:
One of the greatest threats to productivity from collective collaboration is "group think", whether the "group think" is functional or dysfunctional by nature.
Groups will always have an inherent tendency to suppress the individual.
Individuals are the only entity that can keep a group in check (i.e. whistle blowers, rebels, non-conformists, visionaries, etc.)
In an ideal world, groups and individuals complement one another.
It is arguable that a individualism is a hallmark of a free society (i.e. USA) but I believe that individualism is a hallmark of mankind and universal.
I also believe that individuals should not be threatened by the follies of group behavior. At the very least it something for individuals to talk about at tea parties.:)
Posted by: namegoeshere | Jan 11, 2007 1:46:13 PM
Sure, that's true. But the result still depends on the decision-maker.
Collaborative efforts with a sound wise decision changes things.
Posted by: KE Liew | Jan 13, 2007 3:38:04 AM
LOVE the picutes (drawings)... Thanks for posting them
Posted by: James | Jan 15, 2007 1:41:33 PM
We can only discover the potential of crowd intelligence when we find ways to nurture and test it. I once watched a performer train an audience to master long complex weaves of polyrhythmic finger-clicking and hand clapping. For the finale, he made one half of a big audience (3K) repeat a complex weave of polyrhythms with finger clicking, then taught the other half another set to repeat with their clapping -- a process that went on for the better part of two minutes. I couldn't believe it was possible for us to remember all those rhythms, but we did. I seriously doubt if a smaller group have done it. But what happened? Is this an easily repeatable experiment? (I suspect not.) How did the entertainment that night (Stomp) contribute to what the audience accomplished? Crowd entertainments like the astonishing Cinematrix system suggest crowds can do things not yet dreamed in our philosophies. We may stand to learn that many types of collective intelligence, like networks, may only come to life upon reaching certain thresholds -- but first, we need to learn what those thresholds are.
Posted by: Bill Kuhns | Jan 23, 2007 1:53:54 PM
Single Malt,mmmmmmmmm...
Posted by: Craig Everett | Jan 26, 2007 1:14:11 AM
A dumb crowd, sadly, turns into a mob, when the opportunity to present new and passionate ideas is completely shut down. That, to me, is the worst of all group decision-making scenarios. The tyranny of the majority has been problematic, in one way or another, for 3000 years, going back to ancient Greece. Authority, to me, seems to be the root of a "wise community" versus "mob rule." Steve Jobs is not a Lee Iacocca because Jobs trades his authority of running Apple for better designed products. Lest we forget that Iacocca's strong personality gave us the K-Car in the 1980s. Blech!
Posted by: Mike H. | Jan 29, 2007 1:16:25 AM
Regarding your example
"Dumbness of Crowds" is a pile of people collaborating on a wiki to collectively author a book.
and your prediction
I'm extremely skeptical that a group will produce even a remotely decent novel, for example.
I recently discovered a A Million Penguins, a group wiki for creating a novel:
Can a collective create a believable fictional voice? How does a plot find any sort of coherent trajectory when different people have a different idea about how a story should end – or even begin? And, perhaps most importantly, can writers really leave their egos at the door? Typically, a writer will acknowledge in print the efforts of their book’s editor, copy editor and agent, since they each will have read the work in draft form. But such acknowledgments regularly include a disclaimer along these lines : “Any errors that remain are, of course, my own”. So the majority of published writers depend on collaboration, but only up to a point. After all, there is usually a single name on the jacket of a novel.So is the novel immune from being swept up into the fashion for collaborative activity? Well, this is what we are going to try and discover with A Million Penguins, a collaborative, wiki-based creative writing exercise.
The project is over, with a summary posted on their blog, which notes that there were 1,500 contributors, 11,000 edits, 75,000 unique visitors and 280,000 page views, resulting in 'not the most read, but possibly the most written novel in history':
So what of the experiment - can a collective really write a novel? I guess the answer has to be a qualified maybe ... As the project evolved I think I stopped thinking about it as a literary experiment and started thinking about it more as a social experimen ... This project has been exhilarating, controversial, frustrating, engaging, funny, touching and at times it has nearly driven me bananas.
I've skimmed a bit of the novel, and as far as I can tell, it does not provide compelling evidence to dispute your claim.
Posted by: Joe McCarthy | Mar 20, 2007 11:01:51 AM
I wrote about this exact fallacy starting a year ago:
http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=131
http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/12/wikipedia-and-wisdom-of-crowds/
http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=186
Posted by: emma | Mar 21, 2007 8:54:58 AM
Which is why I dubbed "the wisdom of crowds" - "the wisdom of the herd"
Nothing I have seen in digg since blogging about the "wisdom of the herd" has changed my mind either
Posted by: drk | Mar 23, 2007 3:16:06 AM
The decision-maker should be the individual and not someone who claims to be the head decision-maker; in an ideal world.
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